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 Post subject: Foggy Ferries
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:29 am 
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This morning's 8:40 to Central had a VERY close shave with the incoming ferry to Lamma.

We suddenly stopped dead in a fog bank in the middle of the Lamma Channel. Horns were blaring and, as I was sitting upstairs out the back, I was able to stick my head out and get a clear view of....the two ferries on a total head-on collision course.

The ferry to Lamma was still coming for us from the left but.....swung right at THE VERY LAST MINUTE.

After 11 years of taking this ferry almost daily, it was the closest to a head-on collision I've seen. Got to hand it to the pilots.....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:25 am 
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The first one to post a good photo of the near-collision here (or email it to info@lamma.com.hk) wins a free drink in a YSW bar of his/her choice!

Plus a second drink for an eye witness account.

I'm also trying to get some comments from HKKF....

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 Post subject: foggy ferries
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:59 pm 
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I too was on that ferry and it was a very close call. It makes me wonder if the radars were on? The fact that we hadn't yet crossed the cargo shipping lane, made me feel a little weak at the knees! Last year I was on the 7 in such fog and watched the rocks of green island rise next to the side of the ferry something us 7'o clockers like to mention to each other every time we encounter fog!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:09 pm 
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I've just met the boss of HKKF again at the big Women's Day dinner in Sampan tonight, he promised some explanations tomorrow....

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Last edited by Lamma-Gung on Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:19 am 
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Lamma-Gung, if you do meet up please praise those pilots to him, I've been on many a journey through fog back to Lamma over the years and they got us there each time in one piece.....with never a word of thanks from any of us.

I actually thought they wouldn't make it for a few seconds yesterday as the ferry steaming towards us seemed not able to swing right fast enough. But they reacted quickly enough to avert a collision. I wanted to climb into the pilot's cabin to thank him personally afterwards, but I don't speak Cantonese. A huge thanks on behalf of the passengers, please. And if they didn't have a functioning radar between them, could that please be fixed?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:53 am 
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Moya {L_WROTE}:
Lamma-Gung, if you do meet up please praise those pilots to him, I've been on many a journey through fog back to Lamma over the years and they got us there each time in one piece.....with never a word of thanks from any of us.


Praise them because they didn't crash right into each other? Surely you jest ...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:25 am 
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I was going to say the same thing!!! They shouldnt have got so close to eachother in the first place.

Surely in this day of age they have some sort of radar and if not they can probably find an app for their phone...joke.


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 Post subject: Green Island near miss
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:35 am 
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I did not make any record to give now a date and time. Sometime foggy spring season last year the ferry stopped just meters from rocks of Green Island. I was on the front seat lower deck. That time I was wondering how this was possible when using radar. Do the radars detect rocks? If yes, do they function properly? The ships are equipped with GPS and the position is plotted against marine chart. Does the fog obstruct GPS?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Depending on the GPS (age and specific type) they may be only accurate to +/-30M. This puts you inside a circle 60m wide. Then add to the fact that many GPS take anywhere from 2-15 seconds to update, gives a bit of margin for error. ESP in the channel near green island, and when travelling fast.

Fog does not USUALLY have much effect on GPS. HOWEVER anything that obstructs the line of to the satellites can effectively lower the accuracy or cause it not to work at all. in the forest, under an overpass, in a building or tunnel. Also canyons are notorious, and the channel at green island IS effectively a canyon. Even Heavy clouds or Fog may completely block reception.

Radar often (mostly) does not pick up things low in the sea, Logs, wash rocks, small boats, lobster pot buoys, or cargo containers floating in the water. It may miss vessels completly also, the smaller and the less metal present the less likely to show on radar.

It is difficult for an island not to show but I was once looking in a radar when an island the size of Green Island appeared to our naked eye and was not on the radar. The first thing I saw was a tree floating in the fog, about 10m up. Fog interference with the radar, and a significant local magnetic disturbance combined to almost plow us into the island. Fortunately that boat only did 10 kts and we avoided it. This was before GPS was available to anyone but military.

All passenger vessels world wide are now required to use AIS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_ ... ion_System

It is a GREAT method of aiding collision avoidance in these conditions. It uses VHF radio waves in conjunction with GPS data for ships to broadcast location, heading, and speed info then the NAV system shows the ships and lists them by distance/time of closest approach to your vessel. Provided they keep going in a straight line!

I suspect that AIS, Radar, and the masters good sense to slow down avoided catastrophe in both cases we are talking about in this thread.

If you want to see something crazy look at the live AIS data for HK here. Choose area #904 and zoom in, it's crazy!

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/

The law of the sea is to travel slow enough to stop in the distance of visibility. I prefer to be able to stop in 1/2 that distance. I mean what about the other guy coming at me? Also required for power vessels underway in limited visibility to give one blast of 4-6 seconds on the horn every 1 minute. AND to reduce speed to the speed necessary to avoid collision.

I am an experienced sailor, powerboater, and navigator, previous holder of a USCG 100TON Masters License - and I prefer NOT to go out in less than 1/2 mile visibility period. Anything less than that on any vessel and I will have to consider - conditions, sea state, crew experience, electronics, other traffic, and anything else I can think of that might make me decide to stay home!

As I side note - By international law a vessel MUST use all available means to avoid collision. That means your EYES at all times, no matter what else you have.

This requires also that ALL vessels equipped with radar use it at ALL times.

Something I noticed that NO ferries were doing in the daylight when I got here. Until that one hit a concrete post with a light on it at Cheng Chau, about Sept. Starting THAT morning all the ferries I have seen are using radar 24x7. The skipper of that ferry is going to be in deep doo doo as he said he did not have his radar on, and therefore was not using ALL AVAILABLE MEANS TO AVOID COLLISION.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:39 pm 
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I said to click area 168 for the live AIS data for HK. Apparently the area number changes depending on zoom level. You will have to navigate yourself to HK to look at the ships here. It's just google maps, if you can't do that then this whole conversation is prob over your head! LOL


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:29 pm 
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PNWxplant {L_WROTE}:
If you want to see something crazy look at the live AIS data for HK here. Choose area #904 and zoom in, it's crazy!

http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/


That's a pretty amazing resource.
We can track the HKKF ferries in real time.

I'll have to check it on Sunday to see if it shows the junks usually off the west coast.

Could have used it a few months ago when we had ewald talking about tankers making secret rendezvous off Lamma.

Though he'd probably say that the secret tankers turned off their AIS.


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Last edited by Alan on Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:38 pm 
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I dont think the sampans will have it.

A vessel may have an AIS transeiver or just a receiver. Without some kind of screen (some VHF radios have a small LCD screen with integrated AIS) you can't use the data.

The few pleasure boats that have it generally have only the receiver, although both are becoming more common in vessels not required to have it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:00 pm 
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And another image, Central piers.
Two HKKF, two First Ferry and two Star Ferries.

Reminds me of the movie "Enemy of the State".


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Last edited by Alan on Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:48 pm 
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well of course it is SOP to turn off electronic devices wich broadcast your location while conducting covert ops - sheesh


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:32 pm 
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I miss Ewald


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:12 pm 
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Thanks for all the info PNWxplant. Very interesting.

Am on a ferry to Lamma as I write. No fog so far......


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 Post subject: foggy ferries
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:14 am 
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Lamma Gung did you get any feedback from the Lamma Ferry company about this incident?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Was on the same ferry, also wondering this!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Sorry, despite me following up several times, I'm still waiting for a reply from HKKF to my "media enquiry" to their GM and their PR people:

1. What happened this morning exactly? Where? When?
2. What measures were taken to prevent the collision?
3. Have the passengers been informed throughout the incident?
4. Why did this happen at all? Don't your ferries have radar, GPS or other devices to prevent all collisions?
5. What will you do in future to prevent this from happening again in foggy conditions or at night?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Finally, after several reminders and feeling like having to pull somebody's teeth out against their will, I got replies from HKKF:

1. What happened this morning exactly? Where? When?

On 6 March 2012, at about 08:50, because of foggy weather, the coxswain of the ferry from Yung Shue Wan to Central kept left of his lane to keep away from the land to avoid a collision. On the other hand, the coxswain of the ferry from Central to Yung Shue Wan also kept left of his lane to keep away from other ships.
During the journeys, when they were aware of each other through the radars, they made soundings to signal each other and slowed down their ferries to avoid collision. After investigation, they tried every means to avoid collision in this case, so they found no crucial mistakes.

2. What measures were taken to prevent the collision?

Both coxswains used soundings to signal each other and slowed down their ferries to avoid collision.

3. Have the passengers been informed throughout the incident?

No passenger was informed because the coxswains thought no accident was happening and they had tried every means to avoid collision.

4. Why did this happen at all? Don't your ferries have radar, GPS or other devices to prevent all collisions?

All of our ferries are equipped with AIS and radars to prevent collisions. The radars at the time worked properly, and the captains found no crucial mistakes after investigation. But we are waiting for their thorough report before making final conclusions.

5. What will you do in future to prevent this from happening again in foggy conditions or at night?

We will remind our coxswains once again to raise their awareness during foggy weather.

Thank you again for raising your concerns.

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Last edited by Lamma-Gung on Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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