This is very sad and as a dog owner myself, my sympathy goes to all those who have lost their dogs.

Unfortunately I am unable to attend the meeting on Thursday but I hope it focuses on trying to understand what has driven someone to take such extreme and horrific measures and how it can be prevented in the future. It would be a pointless exercise trying to find the guilty party because unless you catch them in the act with evidence in hand there is frankly not much you can do.

On Lamma we are community, and as a community it is our responsibility to ensure that it is harmonious for all those who live and visit here. We must respect the views of others and that not all people are dog lovers. As dog owners we must do our part to ensure that a pleasant place for all to live by controlling our dogs better.

I often walk my dog, as do many others on the path leading up to the helicopter pad and often surprised myself at how many owners do not clean up their dogs poop. Nobody, even a dog lover, likes to see dog poop all over the place.

We all want our dogs to be as free as possible, and that is one of the main attractions of having a dog on Lamma is that they can live a fairly free life. However, the main street of Yung Shue Wan for example may not be the place to let your dog run so freely. Anyone who has walked their dog on the main street particularly at the weekend will know that some peoples reactions are not positive when they see the dogs, some are very scared and give the dog a wide birth. Like it or not Lamma is a tourist hot spot and many of the business that we all use ourselves depend on that weekend trade to survive, I am sure they get frustrated by seeing their potential customers scared by the free roaming dogs than run round the streets. ( I am not pointing fingers here its just an example)

It would be far more productive and would go further to preventing further dog killings outbreaks in the long term, if we as a community recognized the root problems and made a change ourselves to making it more pleasant for other by controlling our dogs better.

I am not 100% certain of the actual Hong Kong laws about dogs on leads in public areas etc, cleaning up dog poop etc, if someone knows them please do inform.

Once again my sympathy to all those who have lost their dogs, its very sad and a truly vile act, i hope the perpetrator is found and brought to justice but i find this doubtful and would not solve the problem long term, that responsibility lies with us, on policing each other better to make Lamma a harmonious place for ALL.


Please by reading this don't think that I am in condoning in any way the actions that someone took to poison the dogs.

Thanks

If I'm not sent to start job in China, I'm so there. I'm not sure what I can do, because I live in Sha Po where this wacky man isn't doing this shit.

Anyhow love those posters all over town, saying .... we'll get you. Is like that scene on movie Summer of Sam. where the neighorhood is chanting "we'll get you son of Sam we'll get you son of sam, we'll get you....

"I am not 100% certain of the actual Hong Kong laws about dogs on leads in public areas etc, cleaning up dog poop etc, if someone knows them please do inform. "

I am not entirely sure either but I believe that the law says that any dog over 25 lbs should be kept on a lead, along with chows of all sizes since they can be, presumably, a bit fierce, although that is subject to opinion I am sure..

Certain other breeds are supposed to be muzzled.

I believe it is also up to every dog owner/controller (that includes walkers/helpers) to clean up after their dog otherwise they can be slapped with a well deserved fine of $1500 (I think that is standard for dropping anything and not cleaning/picking it up)

I am not 100% sure about the above but it sounds right from memory.

If anyone has a more definite understanding of the actual law, I would be pleased to hear it.

Regardless, it is up to dog owners to clean up the mess their dogs make and for sure they should not be wandering around without any control.

After this debacle we can probably expect Ag & Fish to come accross and pick up any collarless dog they consider to be a stray and that is in itself a problem for any owner whose dog accidentally pops for an unexpected stroll out that day, for instance after a bath (and therefore without ID).

dog poisoning is happened 14 years ago on Lamma.
Guapa and Ginger has been walking with Philipino helper without leash everyday
most of these dog victim are with out leash, without owner,
Lamma responsible dog owner knows this already,
most of new victim are too lazy and too irresponsible to their dog.
don't do self advertisement by dog's unhappy incident.
a lot of old Lamma resident knows who is suspect, if there are enough evidence to proof this< this person has already caught,
dont' create more victim by paraquat, there are no antidote, only goes to hell after
take this weed killer,

I really do hope most people feel the same way as Mansky and I do.

I also take my dog to the helicopter pad almost everyday and it is very annoying and sad to see all the dog poops left there. Makes me feel sick and disgusted all the time.. Maybe I should start cleaning someone else's mess as well..

I'm away at the moment. Can't attend the meeting on Thursday but I'm reading the forum everyday and talking to the friends on lamma everyday to get updated on the situation.

Do really hope the meeting turns out productive and comes out with some ideas to change people's thoughts and mind in the long-term. We need to educate the public in general. Having to clean up after your dog is just so basic it's even depressing that we have to keep talking about this. But maybe we could do some more to convince those people who let their dogs roam free that it does not do good any to anyone, the village shop owners, the dogs themselves as they might get killed eventually, and the other dog owners who have to be the innocent victims agonizing over the worries and feat that what if it happens to my dog as well...

Hope things will start to change.

My heart goes out to all the families and dogs/cats who have suffered from this ordeal...

Hi, My name is Gary and I'm borrowing the ID from a friend of mine.

I will be holding the event this Thursday at 8pm at Diesels bar. PLEASE , PLEASE all dog and cat owners come. I have asked the police, and Hans our excellent local Vet, so lets discuss and try to find thoughts and ways of dealing with this.................


Nagamuaythai@gmail.com

Mobile 90120561

A text message I received on Sat:

"Lesley's beloved dog, Jack, died in the Wanchai Vet Clinic last night.Dr Mike Hilditch is deeply concerned. He says that whatever this poison is, it poses a very serious risk to humans too and could be absorbed through the skin.

Please get the word out to all the parents you know. This situation is already so ghastly, we must try to ensure a child doesn't get harmed.<HR>
Unfortunately, outbreaks like this one seem to happen every number of years on Lamma. Here's a photo gallery I published for the Lamma Animal Protection:
Poisoned Pets - In Memoriam (Photos by LAP, Sep 30, 2003)
<HR>
A Chinese version of this poster below would be strongly recommended and will become available tonight.

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Poster in Chinese is done and out. Please, please i need all your support on Thursday. LETS STAND TOGETHER AND SORT THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some facts about paraquat you folks might want to know before coming to the meeting.

1. Toxic effects ( excerpted from http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/paraquat.htm )

Paraquat is highly toxic to animals and has serious and irreversible delayed effects if absorbed. As little as one teaspoonful of the active ingredient is fatal. Death occurs up to 30 days after ingestion. Absorbed paraquat is distributed via the bloodstream to practically all areas of the body. The lungs selectively accumulate paraquat, and therefore contain higher concentrations than other tissues. This develops into pulmonary oedema and other lung damage, leading to fibrosis. Liver damage occurs and renal failure may follow as the kidneys remove absorbed paraquat.
Paraquat is also toxic if absorbed through the skin. The minimum lethal dose by oral ingestion in human beings is about 35 mg/kg body weight, although less could be lethal without treatment. In dogs the lethal dose is 25-50 mg/kg and in cows and sheep 50-75 mg/kg(7). There is no vapour toxicity, but it can cause nose bleeding if inhaled.
No antidote for poisoning exists although it is recommended that the highly absorbent Fuller's Earth is administered. Hospital care must be sought without delay.


2. General Facts & Immediate Signs & Symptoms ( excerpted from CDC website)

-In the United States, due to its toxicity, paraquat is available for use only by commercially licensed users.

-Paraquat can be easily mixed with food, water, or other beverages. If the form of paraquat that is used is the form that does not contain the safeguard additives (dye, odor, and vomiting agent), people might not know that the food, water, or other beverages are contaminated. Eating or drinking paraquat-contaminated food or beverages could poison people.

-Paraquat poisoning is also possible after skin exposure. Poisoning is more likely to occur if the skin exposure lasts for a long time, involves a concentrated version of paraquat, or occurs through skin that is not intact (skin that has sores, cuts, or a severe rash).

-If it is inhaled, paraquat could cause poisoning leading to lung damage.

-In case of a large amount of ingestion:
pain and swelling of the mouth and throat -> nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea (which may become bloody) -> dehydration & low blood pressure
* Pulmonary edema (fluid in the lungs)
* Lung scarring
* Liver failure
* Kidney failure
* Confusion
* Coma
* Seizures
* Injury to the heart
* Fast heart rate
* Muscle weakness
* Respiratory (breathing) failure, possibly leading to death

-In case of a small to medium amount of ingestion:
* Liver failure
* Kidney failure
* Heart failure
* Lung scarring (may evolve over several weeks)
will develop within several days to several weeks.

If... you think your dog has come in contact with paraquat,
FIRST, DISPOSE EVERYTHING THAT WAS ON HIM/HER, chain, clothes, leash, name tag, everything.
As quickly as possible, wash any liquid paraquat from his/her skin with large amounts of soap and water. Washing with soap and water will help protect people as well from any chemicals on their bodies.

Given that everyone knows what everyone else is doing on Lamma I'm amazed that someone manages to lay poisoned chunks of meat around our paths without being seen by somebody.

I suppose if the murderer goes out at 3am to lay the poison then there's less chance he or she will be spotted, but anyone shuffling about leaving items in the undergrowth at the side of the road is going to look fairly conspicuous. My guess is that some people do know the murderer, but for whatever reason won't come forward.

As to catching the murderer not solving the long-term problem, I agree that it won't. But it will solve the short-term problem, and that would be good for us and our dogs.

_________________
Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears.

I've just received these bilingual notices below both from the Lamma police and the District Council for posting in this forum.

Not sure how welcome (or not) these are to dog owners, but at least they explain the relevant laws and regulations....

Senior Inspector Poon writes that the "Police is carrying investigation into the above incident with a special team from Crime HQ of Cheung Chau Police Station.
They will interview all the witnesses to the cases as to establish the facts. At the same time, we will display notices to remind dogs owners to exercise proper control of their pets. We'll also arrange a forum to discuss the matter with locals at the office of the North Lamma Rural Committee [opposite HSBC] possibly in the evening on 2011-10-06 (Thursday). We will keep you informed when everything is fixed up. "

Not sure yet if this is supposed to compete with the Diesel's meeting on Thu evening or if they can combine the meetings, ideally. The Rural Committee office is pretty nice and comfy, so maybe it would be a good venue for the "official" part of the meeting before continuing in Diesel's afterwards?

There's also a Reward Pledge form for catching the dog killer that'll be circulated on Thursday by the Diesel's meeting organiser(s).

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Call from our Lamma Police Chief, SI Philip Kwok:

They're going ahead with a separate, "official" meeting about this issue at 7pm on Thursday in the Rural Committee Bldg, upstairs in the conference room, together with the SPCA and other parties to explain the facts so far and collect more info from dog owners. Bilingual posters to follow soon.

They police didn't consider it appropriate to join the meeting in a bar, but as it's at least one hour before the 8pm Diesel's meeting, it's actually quite good timing.

Get the "official" facts first and then move to Diesel's to discuss what actions to take about them....

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The police's notice is ridiculous.
I think their duty is to arrest the dog killer, but they have shifted the focus asking people to control their dogs.

Btw, I wonder if people remember that district councilor Yu Lai Fan has ever posted a banner with her tips to ask owner to "make your dog become lovely"?

Why didn't they post the regulation on killing and poisoning of dogs?

You mean this banner?



It basically says the same as the police notice, but that "Gentle Reminder" sounds so, so, so ... motherly! Almost like, "You naughty boys and girls, put your dogs on a leash!"

Well, let's ask the police about the exact regulations and punishment for dog killers....

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The chance of anything like the maximum penalty being applied are slim to none, though.

Yes, that's the poster.

And thank you for your follow up

It's a $200,000 fine and 3 years imprisonment under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Ordinance.

These are maximum penalties, but a serial killer is likely to get a higher starting tariff even for a first conviction.

Whilst i do sympathise with those who have lost their best friends, there is a simple solution to prevent a repeat: keep your dog out of other peoples crotches.


Alan, you just beat me to it

I think we could go little wider on this law range as paraquat is harmful to humans as well. There have to be some kind of restrictions on using such a dangerous chemical without clear/legitimate intention where it can so easily harm the public.

The consequences of the misuse of such a chemical need to be informed. I honestly don't think this killer is a smart or educated person at all. She/he needs to learn this could get her/him in real trouble and we need to make sure it does (in a lawful way, I guess) when this person gets caught.

I agree completely. Some people in Tai Peng spray herbicide in areas, immediately adjacent to the path, that are overgrown by weeds. I don't know that it is paraquat, or what it is, because the spray packs are not labeled, but certainly no herbicide should be sprayed where there is the potential that children (or pets) can get into it. It is unfortunate that our government thinks that any unlicensed, untrained person should be able to spray paraquat wherever they want. Even more terrible is we have found pesticides that are banned in Hong Kong, being brought in from mainland China and sprayed on agricultural areas in the New Territories. There is seemingly little control over pesticide/herbicide use in Hong Kong, and I am actually surprised that we don't read more reports (even here on Lamma) about kids getting into poison.

Sorry I can't make the meeting on Thursday, but thanks to those of you who have organized it.

Seems strange that they have decided to hold a meeting one hour before ours??????????? Anyways Fact is after speaking to both the CIDs, and the so-called village councilwomen, who both had excuses to not show at the meeting and were more worried that I was able to obtain the permission to hold a meeting? Anyways guess it'll be interesting to go to the 7pm one and listen to them say it's because the dogs are off the leads, etc, etc. Yes, I'm not disputing that fact but the main focus is lets catch the murderer who thinks it's Ok to do this shit!!!!!!!! I hope we have your local support?

Actually, in reality, even if someone was caught laying poison meat, they would be unlikely to be convicted of anything more than littering.

All you could prove would be that they had dropped some meat on the ground.
You couldn't prove they had anything to do with earlier poisonings, and obviously no dog would have been injured by the one they were caught laying.

Even proving the meat was poisoned would not be clear cut: they could say that that someone had sprayed pesticide on the grass and contaminated the meat.