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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:21 pm 
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poilkoop {L_WROTE}:
They have no right to that Government Land and generally seem to use it as squatters while pouring their filthy waste into the harbour with no concern for the environment.


I've said the same thing several times over the years. Even made complaints to the Lands Department, which were blown off despite the blatant breaches of the law.

poilkoop {L_WROTE}:
Any future survey of opinion should be conducted by an independent Agency with no vested interest, not some biased environmental group such as Living Lamma

You reserve your criticism for a "biased environmental group". The only group that bothered to gauge community feeling.

No criticism of the government which planned to simply go ahead with this massive $55 million project, without bothering to inform, let alone consult, the people who live here?

Houghton Mifflin Dictionary {L_WROTE}:
vested interest
A special interest in protecting or promoting that which is to one's own personal advantage.


None of my involvement in environmental issues confers me any "advantage". Just a lot of tedious, frustrating meetings with bureaucrats stonewalling me, and a load of shit poured on my head from the likes of you.

Clearly you prefer to insinuate some sinister motive rather than stick to the issues.


Feel free to do your own survey and let us know the results.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:21 am 
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Poilkoop, it is inevitable that the people conducting a survey to gauge community opinion will be those who are against the change. Those who are in favour of the development or have no strong opinion will sit back and watch things unfold.

You have seen first hand how the plans have been distorted even on a poxy forum such as this, let alone when canvassing for community support. Again, that is completely their prerogative.

As I begin to learn more about Living Lamma, I begin to understand that there are those whose views are pretty straight down the middle and who have some very compelling arguments. It is a shame that those good views are being drowned out by the louder voices of a few heretics.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 9:21 am 
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An SCMP column from a few days ago.


Attachments:
SCMP-Concrete-soul.jpg
SCMP-Concrete-soul.jpg [ 229.47 KiB | Viewed 4495 times ]

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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Interesting to confuse a dump for somewhere with soul


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poilkoop {L_WROTE}:
Interesting to confuse a dump for somewhere with soul


It's increasingly obvious that the weight of opinion is against the plan as it stands. Why not concede that it can be improved?

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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:33 pm 
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SCMP letter {L_WROTE}:
Lamma's charm under threat
May 06, 2011
I was glad to see the South China Morning Post lending its voice to the controversy surrounding the proposed redevelopment of the waterfront at Yung Shue Wan.

I first started visiting Lamma in the 1970s when it still had all of its pre-power-station beauty. Having lived there subsequently for several years in the 1980s and 1990s, I would be very sorry to see another step taken in the destruction of its off-the-beaten-track charm (even if the track has actually been quite well beaten at this stage).

The residents of Yung Shue Wan have clearly registered their opposition to such reckless proposals in the past, and now the government seems to be trying to bulldoze it through again without proper consultation.

I just wonder if the district councillor has been asleep on the job and, if so, if the job shouldn't go to someone else who demonstrates greater interest in standing up for the constituents.

Tom Warden, Lau Fau Shan


Our district councillor hasn't been asleep, she's been very industriously working to push this through.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:42 pm 
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I'm taking today's paper folded at letters page round to her office later in case she's not seen it. I hope she's in.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:00 pm 
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How was your chat?


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 9:40 pm 
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Thanks for asking Nancy. Unfortuntely Yu Lai Fan was not in, but I left the paper (with the letter highlighted by a black marker pen circle) with her secretary and asked that it be passed on. The poor young thing looked rather shocked, but said she would.


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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 11:01 pm 
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YLF herself looked shocked a few years ago when I marched in to talk to her about the ferry fare increases. Thanks for doing that.


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 11:28 am 
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SCMP letter {L_WROTE}:
Residents of Lamma will be consulted
(SCMP 10 May 2011)

I refer to your report ("Lamma waterfront plan back on the table", April 26) and editorial "Lamma islanders ought to be involved in plan", May 2) and a number of letters which have appeared in these columns following your story.

To avoid any misunderstandings, I wish to provide some background to the project for your readers.

The Yung Shue Wan development comprises two phases, with the Phase I works completed in April 2002.

The proposed Phase 2 development includes reclamation of about 4,000 square metres of land for the construction of a landscaped seafront promenade with a sandy foreshore feature in order to improve the general landscape and environment of Yung Shue Wan for enjoyment by locals and visitors.

As an added benefit, the reclamation will be able to accommodate a new emergency vehicular access which will help reduce the travelling time from the town centre to the clinic and helipad in an emergency.

The current conceptual proposal was drawn up in 2003 based on support from the public and consensus reached at that time. However, we are yet to commence the detailed design and will certainly engage the public before firming up any details of the proposed works. It is therefore obviously premature to say that the waterfront will all be covered up with concrete.

The advertisement of the project profile for public inspection and comments from February 24 to March 9 was only a formality under the Environmental Impact Assessment Ordinance.

We have no intention of pressing ahead with the project without the substantive support of the public, including local residents, on its design details.

Lam Sing-kwok, chief engineer/port works,
Civil Engineering and Development Department


Now it seems the man function of this project is "construction of a landscaped seafront promenade with a sandy foreshore feature in order to improve the general landscape", and the EVA is an afterthought. At least they don't repeat the "30 seconds to the pier" bullshit that YLF came up with.

"the substantive support of the public, including local residents, on its design details" From experience with previous "consultations", that means we'll be free to express our opinion on what colour tiling is used.

Also they don't mention a seawall at all. Some may take that as an indication there won't be one. I'll believe it when I don't see it.

Would be nice if they could make up their minds why they want to build this.

They don't seem to have noticed that there already is a more or less natural "sandy foreshore", It could be cleaned up in a week. A boardwalk could be built along the existing shorefront for 1% of the cost of this project.

15 years ago I used to ride my bike along the shorefront in the morning to avoid the rush hour crowds -- not possible now, but Lands Department could paste up some notices and take back the public land and let the public use it.


Last edited by Alan on Wed May 11, 2011 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: alternatives
PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 6:29 pm 
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I understand one of the objectives is to beautify the village water front. May be an “incentive plan” could be an alternative. It works in many places. You modify, modernize and clean your property or business to new standard/specification given by the Govt. - you receive an attractive subsidy and support for your investment. Just creating an opportunity. This is slow, gradual, small steps process, no need to endure nuisance of large construction site, protects individual needs and promotes individual ideas. Perhaps the same money can be spent with better effect and avoiding conflicts with the community.

Part of the EU is being re-developed this way in many aspects.


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 7:41 pm 
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@@@@in order to improve the general landscape and environment of Yung Shue Wan for enjoyment by locals and visitors@@@

Blatant lie and baloney!

Push the shore out by 10 to 30 meters will never make YSW more attractive. Ask the tourists what they come for? A uniform brick road or the rugged diverse collage we have now?


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2011 10:15 pm 
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moksheungming {L_WROTE}:
Ask the tourists what they come for?


Satay Sticks (which I note that every take-away joint has started selling now) and Tofu.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:24 pm 
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SCMP Letter {L_WROTE}:
Opinions of community were ignored
SCMP, May 17, 2011

Living Lamma wonders if Lam Sing-kwok, chief engineer/port works, Civil Engineering and Development Department, is working under false assumptions ("Residents of Lamma will be consulted", May 10).

He claims that the "Yung Shue Wan development comprises two phases", yet fails to acknowledge that the department's plan for Phase 2 was rejected by the public in 2003.

This is in essence the same plan that has been slightly scaled down without any attempt at public engagement today.

Mr Lam argues that an "added benefit" of the reclamation will be to reduce the travelling time from the "town centre". We wonder if he has ever been to Lamma or realises just how incongruous this statement is.

As for an emergency vehicle access to connect the clinic with the helipad, we already have it. It was built as part of Phase 1.

There is nothing "conceptual" about the department's plan.

The (straight) line on the map has been drawn without any consideration to existing features and shows quite clearly where concrete is going to be poured. It is "obviously" not "premature to say that the waterfront will all be covered up with concrete". This approach to design is at the heart of the problem.

The department's plan ignores the comments put forward by professional planners and designers from the community in 2003. Why is this so? The department's website proudly states: "We Engineer Hong Kong's Development." Surely, the engineering should come after the design? Where are the architectural plans and landscape drawings that show clearly what the design will look like? Why do engineers dictate design in Hong Kong? If this is allowed to continue, we will no longer enjoy a diversity of city, village and countryside areas.

Most worrying, Mr Lam ends his letter by stating that there is "no intention of pressing ahead with the project without substantive support of the public ... on its design details". The choice is, therefore, between spending HK$75 million (for the reclamation and the proposed cycle park, which the government insists on treating as two separate issues) on misguided "conceptual proposals" that the department will not budge on, or nothing at all. This benefits no-one.

Please, Mr Lam, let's have these two projects go ahead as a beautifully designed and well-engineered harbourfront enhancement based on a holistic plan, which would really benefit the community. Is this too much to ask?

Laura Ruggeri, chairperson, Living Lamma


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:39 am 
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I would broadly support the views expressed in the letter (above) from Laura Ruggeri. But it's disappointing that she concludes by saying "let's have these two projects go ahead".

Apparently Living Lamma supports development of the Yung Shue Wan waterfront. Is there any organisation that opposes development on Lamma?


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:08 am 
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Rummy Coakes {L_WROTE}:
I would broadly support the views expressed in the letter (above) from Laura Ruggeri. But it's disappointing that she concludes by saying "let's have these two projects go ahead".

Apparently Living Lamma supports development of the Yung Shue Wan waterfront. Is there any organisation that opposes development on Lamma?


I'm not speaking for Laura, but I think she meant that if the government actually want to improve the waterfront, there are much better ways of doing it.

A boardwalk promenade, for instance, that followed the existing seawall. And cleaning up the crap dumped in the harbour and on the beach, especially near the old pier.

But it seems to me that the decision process is:
    1) Whose turn is it to get a grant?
    2) How much concrete can this buy?
    3) Where is the easiest place to pour it? (So we don't have to compensate any landowners.)
    4) What excuse can we think of to do this?
    5) Tell CEDD to draught a plan.
    6)Public consulted on what colour tiles to be used on the slabs.


Every time I've tried to discuss this with the government or politicians I just run into a blank wall: they don't have any intention of considering any other way of solving the problems they claim are the purpose of the project. They just see it as a way to funnel money to their cronies. If any public good comes of the project, that's a bonus, but not really the point.

If you question the priorities, or worse, suggest cheaper solutions, you are just an enemy of progress and are ignored or vilified.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:33 am 
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Living Lamma is not calling for reclamation, but "harbourfront enhancement based on a holistic plan".
That means that instead of building a concrete platform for bikes on the last remaining stretch of natural coastline in YSW, bike racks are placed along the pier when it will be rebuilt, or in the area where the illegal platform stands (opposite the post office).
It also means that instead of a racetrack for VVs on the waterfront, we can have a wooden catwalk on stilts as suggested by Save Lamma in 2003, or something else that architects and planners may suggest as part of a design competition.
If we simply oppose these two projects (waterfront reclamation and bike park) and don't come up with alternative proposals , they will go ahead, maybe not tomorrow, but believe me, the concrete lobby is very persistent.

On the other hand, by calling for a design competition we will stall the projects, buy time, come across as reasonable and therefore acknowledged, and we might even get government departments to spend money where it's needed to improve the environment, as opposed to simply pouring concrete.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:36 pm 
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{L_QUOTE}:
Living Lamma is not calling for reclamation, but "harbourfront enhancement based on a holistic plan".


The problem with campaigning for "enhancement" is that enhancement is subjective. For example, there are people who think Yung Shue Wan would be enhanced by a McDonald's or a monster digital clock/thermometer.

Who is qualified and has the mandate to decide the form and shape of this enhancement? Well, that would be the government engineers and the elected local representative.

How was Phase 2 stopped in 2003? Was it by working with the government on a holistic plan to enhance the harbourfront or was it by good, old-fashioned opposition?

We should campaign for Lamma's preservation not its development. Leave Yung Shue Wan alone! I like it the way it is.

Is there any group on Lamma that is in favour of preservation and opposed to development?


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:55 pm 
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Rummy Coakes {L_WROTE}:
How was Phase 2 stopped in 2003? Was it by working with the government on a holistic plan to enhance the harbourfront or was it by good, old-fashioned opposition?

Is there any group on Lamma that is in favour of preservation and opposed to development?


The cancellation of Phase II occurred around the time of SARS - a time when the govt was happier than usual to cut spending. I'm not sure they ever gave clear reasons why it was shelved, but I doubt they'd ever admit the Save the Harbour campaign had anything to do with it.

I'm in favour of simply tidying up the existing sea wall and beach, removing any nasty effluent outlets and spending some of the money saved on improving the health clinic. But I'm not a group.

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