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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:28 pm 
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OK, I'll write up the questions and forward them to the developers today.
Let's see what replies we'll get.

In the meantime, there was a full HK Heritage programme by Annemarie Evans on RTHK Radio about The Baroque 3 days ago, interviewing a number of people living in South Lamma.
It's online in their complete 1-year archive:

Hong Kong Heritage 2011-05-22

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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:17 pm 
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We've just heard from the Town Planning Board Secretariat that 320 public comments have been received on the Baroque application for rezoning the land so far!

http://www.info.gov.hk/tpb/en/plan_application/Y_I-LI_1.html

There were rumours that this online submission form wasn't working properly as it didn't show the number of received comments so far on the page above. It's working fine and all submitted comments seem to have been received fine.

Send in your comments, deadline: this Fri, May 27. Use mail or fax for some additional impact.

The gist of the application is on the same page, incl. maps, charts, figures and explanations, especially highlighting the many proposed "green" features of the project. The website is at http://www.bol-hk.com.

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Last edited by Lamma-Gung on Fri May 27, 2011 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 7:31 am 
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Scandie wrote:
Residents offer your objection Town Planning Application

Comment on Lamma development plans before 27 May 2011

Residents offer prepared objection letter for Town Planning Application Y/I-LI/1

Baroque on Lamma has plans for a luxury residential and marine project on Lamma Island. If approved, houses would be built on the habitat of the endangered Romer's tree frog and the development site would be adjacent to the last remaining Green Turtle nesting ground in Hong Kong. Plans include a 500 berth marina with diesel storage, 900 flats, provision of 135 private car parking spaces, 20 coach parking spaces, 6 lorry parking spaces, 2 maintenance vehicle parking spaces, 3 staff parking spaces and 2 guest parking spaces in a community where automobiles are currently banned.

Voice your objection to the proposal by sending the objection letter prepared by Kevin Laurie to the Town Planning Board by email to tpbpd@pland.gov.hk. You must add your name and either an email or fax contact. The deadline for comments is 27 May.

prepared letter: http://www.heartbeat.com.hk/publisher/l ... FUUElSBgEH

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:43 am 
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The public comments sent to EPD and Town Planning Board have been received from Living Lamma. They've asked to make them public:

Living Lamma's comments to Environmental Protection Dept.
Living Lamma's comments to Town Planning Board

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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:29 pm 
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RTHK has been carrying comments from Paul Zimmerman on the Baroque application.

Hilariously, he takes them at their word that they want to establish a yachting marina and points out that there are many better places to do that -- Tolo Harbour, e.g. Clearly a real marina would require a lot of infrastructure -- boat repair, fuel storage, and all that would have to come by ferry to Lamma. Whereas in HK or Kowloon it would have road access.

Also it's adjacent to the very busy East Lamma Channel, as anyone who's sat up on the hills and watched flotillas of container ships go by can confirm, not a safe or convenient place to be boating recreationally.

I never believed for a moment that they were serious about building a marina, they would just build the houses and try to sell them to speculators (since no one who could afford the price would actually want to live there) and maybe a few token mooring places, and a few years later shrug and say the marina didn't work out.

And still not a peep from the developers here.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:39 am 
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Lamma-Gung wrote:
We've just heard from the Town Planning Board Secretariat that 320 public comments have been received on the Baroque application for rezoning the land so far!

http://www.info.gov.hk/tpb/en/plan_application/Y_I-LI_1.html


As of 30 May: No. of Comments on Application Already Received: 710

I wonder how many were in support?
Maybe that guy with the wave power generator.

And of course, no responses here, despite their promises. No loss really. I doubt they would convince anyone


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:29 am 
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That's a most impressive number, probably a new record for any Lamma project!

Still awaiting the answers to all the major questions. After some more chasing beyond my weekend deadline, they wrote yesterday that they're "happy to answer the questions asap", but no date....

The Town Planning Board will meet on July 8, maybe making a decision about the BoL planning application by then.

In the meantime, a Social Impact Study is in progress, something I've never seen for any Lamma project.
Anybody got experience or inside knowledge with any study like that?

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 Post subject: Answers from BoL
PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:09 pm 
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Here they are, the official replies from the The Team of The Baroque on Lamma to my "media enquiry".
My questions were trying to summarise the most-frequently raised comments about the project in this forum and the even more active opposition Facebook group.
Thanks to The BoL Team for these mostly very detailed answers and frank comments:<HR>
Thank you for your enquiries and many apologies for our late reply. Please see the following for our responses to your questions.

1. LOCATION: BoL would be in a very remote location, currently only accessible by small, low-frequency ferries, followed by a half-hour walk from Mo Tat Wan or one hour from Sok Kwu Wan.
What public and private transport infrastructure is planned for residents and visitors?


BOL is actually very close to the Hong Kong Island. Convenience of access is top priority for the development. There will be regular and frequent ferry services to and from HK Island. Residents and visitors can use these services. There will also be a public pier at the development for use by other visiting boats.

2. ENVIRONMENT: How would you protect the natural, beautiful environment of South Lamma and the habitats of indigenous animals (Römer's Tree Frogs, Sham Wan Beach's Green Turtles, etc)?

We have carefully studied the site and undertaken detailed assessment of the ecological value of every part of the site.

We are of the opinion that the existing largely abandoned agricultural land and the adjoining foot hills together with the perennial streams are of relatively higher ecological value than the hill slopes on either sides. Therefore, the development should occupy the hill slopes leaving the central strips as a “Conservation Corridor”. We are discussing this with interested experts to look into characteristic pockets within this Conservation Corridor and explore their potential for research, education or simply public enjoyment.

The existing footpath within the Conservation Corridor will be retained and improved; and the general public will be free to visit the different facilities or take part in various “interest” or “educational” classes/activities organized by the managing organizations. The “Conservation Corridor” at the southern part of the site will extend to the Sham Wan SSSI to make sure the Green Turtle habitat is properly protected. A Green Turtle research facility can in fact be established there, managed by specialists, to undertake research into preserving this particular species.

The Conservation Corridor is a key feature within the development. It not only conserves the indigenous flora and fauna species but also the cultural heritage that remains within the largely abandoned and derelict village compound within and adjoining the Conservation Corridor. Our objective is to restore these for the benefit of the visitors, which is in fact complementary to the overall sustainable concept of the whole development.

The proposed residential and resort portion of the development will comprise terraced building of not more than 4 storeys high. They will be carefully designed and landscaped to blend in well with the surrounding landscape. We shall be using natural material and local flora species for hard and soft landscaping, as well as for the access roads and paths. Therefore, the beautiful and natural environment of Southern Lamma is enhanced, and indigenous flora and fauna habitats are mindfully protected.

3. PROPERTY RIGHTS: How could the developers acquire and own land that is on non-transferable agricultural leases to villagers?

There is no difference from any other property/land transactions.

4. PRECEDENTS: How do you differentiate yourself from vision-led property developments like Cyberport, Sea Ranch, Park Island, Gold Coast and Discovery Bay which are nowadays perceived by many people as property developments only?
Which lessons have you learned from the example of the similarly ambitious but almost deserted Sea Ranch luxury development on Lantau?


We do not pretend that this is not a property development, but this development will showcase how it can co-exist with, and even enhance the natural environment, the indigenous flora and fauna species as well as local cultural heritage. This development also aspires to be a leader in sustainable development and will practice innovative technologies that make it carbon neutral, if not zero.

Our Vision is to create a New Destination for Hong Kong and to introduce a new life style. This life style is not just for the residents there but for everybody, locals and tourists alike. This life style is not just about leisurely enjoyment or yachting or events but also about learning to live with and enjoy the natural environment, learning the flora and fauna habitats around you, learning marine ecology and learning how to be sustainable and to draw on clean energy sources.

Some developments failed for a combination of reasons, possibly because of their exclusivity and singularity of purpose. Here, the marina, the waterfront, the resort hotel, and the residences create a small resort township community, not unlike that in Yung Shue Wan. Its vibrancy is derived from activities and visitors. Its attraction is not only the architecture but the environment and the atmosphere, and “learning” too – learning how to respect nature and how to live “green”. We have this in mind when we draw up the master plan because we look into the future and believe that this is the trend.

5. CAR PARKING: Over 100 private and public parking spaces are proposed for private cars, buses, and lorries. However, all powered vehicles are not permitted on Lamma so far (except VVs, emergency vehicles and Power Station vehicles). Please explain.

We need to look at the rationale behind. We need to have transportation in one form or another. The existing villages in Lamma have been developed from old settlements and are not equipped to handle vehicles. The very existence of the VVs (which actually serve as goods and sometimes passenger transport, albeit very polluting and noisy), emergency vehicles and Power Station vehicles show that there are needs for mechanical means of transportation even for compact settlements like Yung Shue Wan and Sok Kwu Wan.

If a sizable development is properly designed right from the start, there is no reason to ban vehicles. If the objection is against “pollution” and/or “noise”, a new generation of quiet electrical vehicles, or vehicles run on other clean energy sources, are now available and will be very common by the time this development is completed around 2017.

6. CREDIBILITY: The land for the "Lamma Garden" development near Yung Shue Wan was purchased in 1997 by the same property developers who are proposing BoL.
14 years later, 11 luxury houses have been built, but some are still not completed and none are occupied so far.
Will the same developers be able to complete the proposed 900 residential units, hotel and marina within a reasonable time frame?


BoL is a joint venture company, a separate entity on its own led by experienced professionals. For a project of this scale, no one can afford any delay.

7. GREENWASHING: How committed and dedicated are you about the extensive green features of your proposal? The HK-listed developers have been building and selling numerous luxury developments all over China very successfully.
Are these green features included mainly to get the currently "green" zoning changed and then sell luxury property?


We believe that if the proposed development is approved by Government, there will be stringent requirements imposed on the Lease Conditions to deliver the agreed green features. In other words, we will not be able to sell the property if we do not comply with the Lease Conditions. As a matter of fact, these green features are essential parts of the whole development concept and part of the life style. The developer believes its continued success hinges on the quality of its development and honoring of its commitments.

8. YACHTING COMMUNITY SUPPORT: HK's yachting and sailing clubs claim to have heard very little of your plans so far. What are your experience, connections and support in the local and international yachting/sailing community? What can you add to HK's current yachting, sailing, windsurfing and watersports venues?

Over the past several months, we have been talking to different stakeholders about this project, including those in yachting industry, yachting media and sailing clubs. They are all very supportive because they had been hard hit by lack of berths for new purchases. We have also been disclosing the proposed marina to participants at international marina conferences, the latest being the ICOMIA World Marina Conference 2011 in Singapore.

Literally everybody we talked to were delighted to know that HK is planning a new marina and representatives of Clipper Round the World Race said they would love to make Hong Kong one of their international stopovers. As a matter of fact, at the 2nd International Superyacht Conference held in Singapore last year, Hong Kong was awarded the “Lack of Marina (berth)” Award!!

There is now a concerted effort among Asian countries to promote yachting in Asean waters as the third (after Caribbean and Mediterranean) and largest (area-wise) destination. The Asean region boost thousands of islands, sites of great natural beauty, and the highest bio-diversity. A network of ports and marinas are being developed to receive these “green” tourists who also bring major economic impacts to the destinations they visit. Singapore is far ahead of Hong Kong in their efforts, and Korea has an ambitious plan to develop 43 marinas by 2019, let alone China!

The new marina will satisfy the “pent-up” demands for more and larger berthing in Hong Kong. It will have the right facilities for hosting international regatta events (Volvo and Clipper races are no longer coming to HK) and boat shows. The former in particular would help to promote yachting as a sport in HK. The “open” marina will put the general public in close-up contact with sailing boats at the marina and, most important of all, the Sailing Academy we propose will train local water sportsmen and groom potential talents.

9. SUPER-MARINA: Singapore and other countries have built large marinas suitable for superyachts (which you hope to attract), usually with very limited success.
What did you learn from these marinas to become more successful?


The volume of Superyacht traffic to Asean countries is still relatively small compared with that of the Mediterranean and the Caribbean. Singapore recorded 81 visits by superyachts in 2010, which is a five-fold increase from 2006, and double that of the year before. It is expected that Superyacht traffic in Asean countries will increase rapidly coupled with that of Superyacht ownership, particularly in China. We are confident that by the time this marina, which is purpose designed to cater for the requirements of superyachts, is completed, the Asean region as a Superyacht cruising ground will be more mature. Hong Kong has every attributes to become a successful Superyacht hub with its transport infrastructures, financial and commercial systems, logistic and communication networks, and tourist orientated facilities.

10. IMPACTS: What positive (and negative) impacts do you expect for all of Lamma Island, beyond South Lamma (besides potential further price increases in house sales and rentals)?

The proposed development will provide hundreds of job opportunities for Lamma people, from casual workers and upwards during the construction and operation stage. It will also provide opportunities for aspiring entrepreneurs to set up their business to satisfy, among other things, the operation and maintenance needs of the facilities, logistic and catering, souvenirs and local produces as well as welfare and other services for its occupants and visitors. Some of the visitors will invariably spill over to other parts of Lamma during their visits. The development will be a catalyst for the rejuvenation of the whole Lamma Island, and more people will benefit from a growing economy than a stagnant one.

The development may spur more public and international interests in Lamma, not only for real estate development but also its potential as a resort island – a resort with a difference. The Baroque on Lamma will be a model of how to marry the natural environment and habitats with a development and how a design with care and vision can create a sustainable community. This successful model can become an example for others to follow or to further develop.

11. FUTURE PLANS: Is BoL planned to grow into a large, expanding development like Discovery Bay, taking over much of South Lamma?

There is no such plan.<HR>
We hope the above could give you a clearer picture of our project.

Once again, we thank you for your interest in our project. Should you have further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Thank you.

Yours Truly,
The Team of The Baroque on Lamma

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Baroque wrote:
3. PROPERTY RIGHTS: How could the developers acquire and own land that is on non-transferable agricultural leases to villagers?

There is no difference from any other property/land transactions.


-- Rubbish.

This is the New Territories and this land is on agricultural LEASES. Cannot be transferred by the tenant, or even sublet, except to members of his family.

(The Tannery land was on a commercial/industrial lease and was bought at government auction.)

Whatever agreement they made with the leaseholders gives them no rights to the land. Not even to farm it, let alone build anything.


Baroque wrote:
Literally everybody we talked to were delighted to know that HK is planning a new marina

Name some of these "everybodies".


Baroque wrote:
Hong Kong has every attributes to become a successful Superyacht hub with its transport infrastructures, financial and commercial systems, logistic and communication networks, and tourist orientated facilities.
And NONE of those facilities will ever be available on Lamma. Not in your wildest dreams

It's simply a residential real estate deal. Hoping naive mainlanders can be suckered into buying flats as an investment. Nothing more. No "superyachts" will ever come. That's Cargo Cult logic.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Some of the visitors will invariably spill over to other parts of Lamma during their visits. The development will be a catalyst for the rejuvenation of the whole Lamma Island, and more people will benefit from a growing economy than a stagnant one.

The development may spur more public and international interests in Lamma, not only for real estate development but also its potential as a resort island – a resort with a difference.


There goes the neighbourhood :(


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:11 pm 
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This was Designing Hong Kong's objection to the Baroque development which Paul Zimmerman is happy for us to see. It's long (necessarily) but certainly helps with the language and facts we need to have at hand when talking about this issue.

Quote:
Re: Planning Application Y/I-LI/1 - To rezone the application site from "Agriculture", "Conservation Area", "Coastal Protection Area" zones to "Comprehensive Development Area (1)" zone and to incorporate the part of the seabed at Tung O W...an to the east of the northern area of the application site which is currently not covered by the Outline Zoning Plan (OZP) into the OZP and zone it as "Comprehensive Development Area (1)"

We OBJECT to the application for following reasons:

1. The proposal comprises Coastal Protection Areas (CPAs), Conservation Areas (CAs) and Agriculture, and is close to two Special Scientific Interest (SSSI) areas. The site is surrounded by CA areas. It forms a buffer zone with the interior areas (Figure1). SSSI, CPA and CA are regarded as the most stringent zoning for conservation purposes and no development is envisioned. There no strong justifications to convert the sites from their existing zoning.

2. The introduction of vehicles on a traffic free island is of great concern, and may lead to increased pressure for expansion of road networks and road improvement throughout the island.

3. Together with other developments on Lamma, including Phase 2 of Yung Shue Wan Development and Ex-Lamma Quarry Site, the proposed developments brings into focus the need for an overall development plan for Lamma Island with a clear recognition of carry capacity and services.

Specific Comments for the Northern Portion

4. The proposed commercial & residential uses and associated works for slope stabilization, infrastructure and services are not in line with the planning intention for CPA areas which are intended to conserve, protect and retain the natural coastline and the sensitive coastal natural environment.

5. The recommended low-rise residential uses along the CAs zone in Mo Tat Old Village and Mo Tat New Village violates the planning intention for the area which intends to protect and retain the existing natural landscape, ecological or topographical features of the areas. The proposed scheme is near the Fung Shui Woods of Mo Tat Village (Figure 2) which has both ecological and historical value.

6. Two sides of the Lamma Island Family Walk (Yung Shue Ha to Mo Tat Old Village section) are proposed to contain 900 units of flats, which is an excessive and incompatible development, and will forever change the walk from a nature walk to an urban walk.

7. The scheme is close to a natural stream in Yung Shue Ha and secondary woodland where various varieties of species are found. There is no information on the impact of the development on the natural assets.

8. The promised Conservation Corridor is an insult as the entire proposal is for the destruction of conservation areas with a large scale development.

Specific Comments for the Southern Portion

9. Again here, a Conservation Corridor is suggested to detract from the fact that the proposal is for a large scale development including hotel and commercial uses as well as associated works for slope stabilization, infrastructure and services in conversation areas.

10. The southern scheme is particularly close to the Sham Wan SSSI and Restricted Area, which is closed from 1 June to 31 October each year for Green Turtle breeding under the Cp. 170 Wild Animals Protection Ordinance (WAPO) (Figure 3). The Green Turtle is an environmentally sensitive species and the proposed hotel together with the rest of the land and marine development will bring high volumes of visitors which is likely to impact this habitat with waste, air, sound and light pollution violating the intention for the Restricted Area which is to minimize human disturbance to Green Turtles and their breeding ground.

Specific Comments for the Marina Portion

11. According to the Landscape Value Mapping of Hong Kong (2005), the entire Tung O Wan together with Tai Long Sai Wan and Hoi Ha are regarded as Bay Landscape which account for 2.61% of Hong Kong’s coastal water landscape, the proposed development will shrink the valuable landscape. The plan has no information on how the loss of Bay Landscape will be compensated.

12. The seabed is not covered by an OZP. It is unreasonable to include the area as a CDA zone without first a comprehensive study all seabed and natural coastlines in Hong Kong. We have concerns over protection and enforcement measures if the plan is approved as the area will not have been covered by a Development Permission Area plan.

13. In 2009 and 2010 Designing Hong Kong conducted a “Preliminary Analyses of New Sites for Boat Clubs” throughout the territory and excluded this area from the list of priority opportunities for new berthing and mooring facilities and leisure marine uses, due to the lack of access and potential impacts on the environment. There are many other sites for new berthing and mooring facilities which have good access and significantly less impact on valuable natural assets.

14. The construction and maintenance cost of the proposed marine facilities are high and unlikely to be feasible. Moreover, these facilities will commercialize the seabed of popular bay for weekend boaters. We have great concern over the ecological, environmental, financial and social sustainability of this proposed project, especially when alternatives are available.

15. The proximity of leisure boating to the East Lamma Channel is a safety concern.

The need for a Shoreline Review

16. Designing Hong Kong recognizes the urgent need for waterfront land and seabed rights for the development of water sports and leisure marine facilities throughout Hong Kong. The location and scale of any such facilities must be based on a well considered rationale and location criteria.

17. We call on the Town Planning Board to call for a Comprehensive Shoreline Study lead by the government with advice from a Commission of experts and concern groups, and open to the public for comment, with the objective of deciding on principles, guidelines and plans for Hong Kong’s long and beautiful shorelines.

Planning and Development Study on Hong Kong Island South and Lamma Island

18. On 13 May 2011 we requested the Studies and Research Section of the Planning Department and the Hong Kong Island and Islands Development Office of the Civil Engineering and Development Department for the Study Report of the "Planning and Development Study on Hong Kong Island South and Lamma Island". This Study has been referred to extensively by the proponent of the captioned planning application. However, we have been denied access to this Study by both making reference to the Code on Access to Information. As a result of this denial of access we are unable to complete our comments on the captioned application in a timely manner and we do reserve the right to do so in the future once we have received the Study. We are clearly surprised that the proponent has had access by its own admission, and that the Planning Department which is also the secretariat of the Town Planning Board has seen it fit to deny access to the same Study to others.

Potential Lamma Country Park

19. It is our understanding that the area covered by the captioned application covers partially covers an area earmarked for possibly inclusion in a Lamma Country Park under the Country and Marine Parks Ordinance. We have been unable to ascertain prior to the comment deadline the status of the review (if any) of the potential Lamma Country Park. However, the fact that this land was earmarked indicates the conservation value and should be taken into account by the Town Planning Board in their review of this application.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:11 pm 
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According to an article posted at the HK Independent Media website, 675 out of 678 comments oppose the plan. The North Lamma Council, The South Lamma Council and a district councilor from Cheung Chau are in favor of the plan.

http://www.inmediahk.net/%E4%B9%9D%E6%8 ... 9%E8%AD%B0


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Letter to the Editor, SCMP 5.06.2011,
by Laura Ruggeri, Chairperson of Living Lamma

Turn south Lamma into country park

"As an alternative energy producer, we wish Lucien Gambarota every success in partnering with developers to improve the eco-friendliness of their projects ("Green vision for project on Lamma", May 22).

Agile Property Holdings, the company behind the proposal to turn south Lamma into a luxury resort and housing estate, is a very active developer on the mainland and Mr Gambarota's inventions may help mitigate the environmental impact caused by its large-scale developments.

Where Living Lamma and environmentalists disagree with Mr Gambarota is on the suitability of south Lamma, an area of outstanding natural beauty, zoned for conservation, coastal protection and agriculture, to build the Baroque on Lamma, essentially destroying the landscape and ecological value of this area and calling it an "eco-development".

Mr Gambarota admits that "Tung O can be hostile terrain when the city is hit by a typhoon. There can be 15-metre-high waves. This is why no one has shown any interest in living there and why land there is so cheap and underdeveloped."

Why, then, has the logical conclusion not been drawn that this site is clearly unsuitable for a marina?

Living Lamma believes that any kind of development will be a disaster for a conservation area of such importance and the existing zoning should not be open for negotiation or altered to serve private profit motives.

The best way to protect south Lamma is to turn it into a country park.

Romer's tree frogs, green turtles and other endangered species should not be sacrificed so that a few wealthy mainlanders can dock their yachts there.

If a marina is needed to cater for their needs, let's build it in an area that is easily accessible, and where the necessary infrastructure is already in place.

On the other hand, Mr Gambarota's suggestions would set an excellent example for other developments in Hong Kong."
<HR>
Reply from Lucien Gambarota, Motorwave Group, Yau Yat Chuen, Letter to the SCMP Editor, 12 June 09:54:

Shortage of marinas in Hong Kong

You reported on the fact that Hong Kong's boating and fishing industry is being penalised due to a shortage of berths ("Local sailors left high and dry", June 5).

I also refer to the letter from Laura Ruggeri, chairperson of Living Lamma, objecting to the proposal for a residential development and much-needed marina on the island ("Turn south Lamma into country park", June 5). She was replying to my letter ("Green vision for project on Lamma", May 22).

Nobody wants to have a cemetery, a power station or an incinerator in his backyard; people obviously would prefer a private garden. But on Lantau they gave way for an airport, and those living near Kai Tak benefited.

There is no doubt that a new airport was needed, and I would contend there is a need for a new marina.

It also represents better utilisation of scarce land resources and can be seen as a tourism asset.

Of course, members of a community are entitled to fight for their rights and for the rights of others, and I wish Ms Ruggeri every success in her crusade to protect frogs and turtles.

In fact the population of these animals will start increasing given the protection programme that will be established by the proposed development on Lamma.

Schoolchildren will be able to visit this part of Lamma and see these unique creatures.

A marina is feasible at this location because the developer has bought sufficient land and is willing to risk his own money for a project that will benefit everybody.

I believe this is the most suitable site for such a marina.

Its construction will not disrupt the lives of any Hong Kong residents, because nobody lives there."
<HR>
These two seem to have a little public feud going on. We're eagerly awaiting the next reply. :)

This interesting but controversial South Lamma country park idea has been around for quite some time. Some people would love it and some want to leave it alone the way it is now. Opinions?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:45 pm 
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I did not find how to insert a link, any advice?
Please try to paste this into address box.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... erted.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Lucien Gambarota wrote:
I believe this is the most suitable site for such a marina.


This is nonsense, for a start its on an east facing exposed shoreline with no natural defense from the waves so the sea wall with have to be substantial.

Secondly, no yacht owner really wants to take a ferry to where his boat is, they want to drive up in the Mercedes, the best outcome is the boat boy will collect the boat take it to central and pick up the owner, bit of a waste of fuel. Yachtsmen will not be interested, as they would want to join RHKYC etc.

There are plenty of better sites.

Might I suggest that build a marina at sea ranch, the empty buildings are already there and its far less exposed than south Lamma.

Where does Agile propose to run a ferry from ??


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:40 pm 
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ALERT The Baroque consultation has "restarted". Possibly to consider it in context of the Quarry development submission or as a result of the previous consultation. I think it's essential to submit comments again so that the developers can't negate the objections received.

Consultation on the Lamma Quarry and further consultation on the South Lamma Baroque development. Period for comments ends 28th (Quarry) and 29th June (Baroque) http://www.epd.gov.hk/eia/


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Here's a window into what the real HK yachting community think of the plan: an article in 'Fragrant Harbour' magazine, a marine leisure publication.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:37 pm 
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The key point is to stress the inadequacy of a marina there. Simply no natural protection. Other areas and Quarries near Stanley for instance would work much better. That is how this project can be killed. I asked some sailor friends in HK and really the idea of sailing in that location and having a marina is the biggest joke they ever heard.


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 Post subject: preserving nature
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:36 pm 
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This tactic may kill the project (I hope it will) yet I think it is worth to oppose the project on environmental grounds because this is the major point in here (at least in my understanding). This is to make the protection of nature a rational thing. It is rational. Sounds like Green Peace manifesto or Giant Cross on Lamma, yet I feel it is so important to say: Yes we trash this project not because the bricks are expensive but because the stupid sea turtles lay eggs on the beach.
By the way; it should be trashed just for its name Baroque: fits to Lamma like igloo architecture to Africa.


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 Post subject: Re: preserving nature
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:29 pm 
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rambler wrote:
This tactic may kill the project (I hope it will) yet I think it is worth to oppose the project on environmental grounds because this is the major point in here (at least in my understanding). This is to make the protection of nature a rational thing. It is rational. Sounds like Green Peace manifesto or Giant Cross on Lamma, yet I feel it is so important to say: Yes we trash this project not because the bricks are expensive but because the stupid sea turtles lay eggs on the beach.
By the way; it should be trashed just for its name Baroque: fits to Lamma like igloo architecture to Africa.


There is no need to limit the grounds for oppostion. The EPA assessment is a separate process anyway. That will surely be negative.
Then they have to exhibit a great benefit to HK for trashing the fragile environment there, and that's when the total lack of substance in the "marina" will be demonstrated.

The fact that Lamma has been inhabited for over 3000 years and that in that time there has never been a harbour there, or I think anywhere on the west coast, should give a hint that it's not a good place for a permanent mooring.

HSY and PSB get pretty well pounded in typhoons. I'd expect this would be similar.

Of course, they might then say they'll build a 20 foot wall to protect it from storms. That would be lovely.


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