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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:54 am 
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Well, I'm definitely not a spokesperson for King Wong! I have tried for years to get in touch with them, unsuccessfully till very recently. My role right now is an intermediary, an independent, unattached media presenting facts, news and views from ALL sides, without being an activist or taking sides in what will become a very heated and passionate debate soon, I'd guess. I'm trying to be diplomatic to keep the communication channels open and allow free, uncensored discussion in this forum for ALL sides.

My private views are not really important in this debate - everybody's got an opinion and mine is not better or more important than anybody else's - I'm trying to stay neutral and objective, listening to BOTH sides and maybe even play Devil's Advocate once in a while to keep the discussions active and less one-sided. I'll strive to present the facts, views and opinions of both sides so you can make up your own mind.

Anybody can try to talk to King Wong directly and they got loads of calls after that story broke last week on all HK media. But as a private developer, unlike the govt. depts, they have really no obligation to talk to anybody except the stakeholders, politicians and govt. I count myself lucky to have an occasional look into their projects and even get some, not all, questions answered, for now. Better to have at least one direct channel to ask question than none at all like before, I think.

This current direct communication flow might be short-lived anyway, I worry, as they're hiring an "experienced political PR" company right now after their recent setback. They might become the main, "official" channel for media and Lammaites to learn about the projects in the near future. The developer's guys are not eager for the limelight themselves, basically just your regular and, yes, very friendly HK guys, very likable on a personal level. I'm not defending or supporting the projects myself personally, just presenting what they tell me, THEIR views, not mine, in a fair way.

Anyway, soon, you might hear only the "officially sanctioned" line of PR spiel, not my own independent and unfiltered remarks anymore. Maybe that will make some people happier, fighting against an anonymous PR foe, representing an evil "Island Shredder" monster developer, instead of getting questions answered personally and honestly by jovial "GM Paul and his Merry Men"? But this is not a battle of "good" vs. "evil", but between people with different interests and world views, most of them on both sides meaning well, trying to do their best to their abilities.

Before that happens maybe we can get them to organise a guided tour and Q&A session for everybody interested? Let me suggest that to them, as soon as the interior of the Lammarina houses will be completed, end of this month, maybe, perhaps?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:24 am 
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Tavis wrote:
As you can see from these pics I found in an old forum thread, The Baroque fills the entire valley between Sham Wan and Shek Pai Wan. These artists impressions are at least a year old and I remember they used to be on King Wong's site. King Wong's website now has no useful information or pictures pertaining to "The Baroque". A few snaps of sailing boats and pics of the area in its undeveloped state. In the absence of up-to-date information, we'll just have to rely on these old illustrations.

Yes, you're right, Tavis, those artist's impressions have been taken off the website when they redesigned it recently, not improving but decreasing the info and relevant pictures dramatically. It has almost no factual info left now and almost no actual current pictures of the area. I complained about that myself, a bare bones, uninformative website, a company's official namecard, does not present a great picture of a company and their projects.

These artist's impressions I've published more than once years ago (generating no real interest or feedback from readers back then) are "7 years out of date", according to the developers. I'm pushing them for updated versions right now, hopefully after Easter. That entire area between Shek Pai Wan and Sham Wan has been cancelled already and the entire project scaled back dramatically. Obviously, it would never be permitted to get so close to Turtle Beach.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:25 am 
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it's quite obvious that they do not want to take part in debates and public forums.
How can they win hearts with a luxury development called The Baroque in an area that is currently enjoyed by nature lovers, very important for the eco-system and the protection of endangered species?

The only people profiting from this project are the developer and the villagers who sold their farmland.
No amount of spiel can change this.

If they start their PR offensive, Living Lamma will collect signatures among all those who live in Lamma or come to Lamma to enjoy a day out, and submit them to the Planning Department.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:09 am 
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Lamma-Gung wrote:
Well, I'm definitely not a spokesperson for King Wong! I have tried for years to get in touch with them, unsuccessfully till very recently. My role right now is an intermediary, an independent, unattached media presenting facts, news and views from ALL sides, without being an activist or taking sides in what will become a very heated and passionate debate soon, I'd guess. I'm trying to be diplomatic to keep the communication channels open and allow free, uncensored discussion in this forum for ALL sides.

My private views are not really important in this debate - everybody's got an opinion and mine is not better or more important than anybody else's - I'm trying to stay neutral and objective, listening to BOTH sides and maybe even play Devil's Advocate once in a while to keep the discussions active and less one-sided. I'll strive to present the facts, views and opinions of both sides so you can make up your own mind.


I can totally see that about your reportage. And I'm grateful to you for having been able to make that connection. But I think the developer has some responsibility to make himself more widely available.

Lamma-Gung wrote:
Anybody can try to talk to King Wong directly and they got loads of calls after that story broke last week on all HK media. But as a private developer, unlike the govt. depts, they have really no obligation to talk to anybody except the stakeholders, politicians and govt.


I'm afraid I don't agree with you on this. It's pretty important to identify who the stakeholders are in such a situation. Within an older worldview, stakeholders were only govt., other official bodies and perhaps the previous landowners / immediate neighbours. My father was a land developer in Canada and I still remember the barbecues he used to hold during development approval processes and only local govt. counselors were invited. But times have changed and now the whole local community is understood to be a stakeholder. And it's mandatory for developers to go through lengthy public community consultation processes prior to being granted development approval. Lamma residents ARE stakeholders. Certainly the South Lamma Community, anyway. And consulting with the Lamma community wouldn't mean walkabouts with a few locals - it would mean properly organised and well-publicised public meetings held in appropriately large and accessible venues.

Lamma-Gung wrote:
This current direct communication flow might be short-lived anyway, I worry, as they're hiring an "experienced political PR" company right now after their recent setback.


Whatever vehicle they use it is appropriate that they step up to their responsibility to face the questions of the wider community. It would be common for organisations to hire a PR firm for such a large project.

Lamma-Gung wrote:
Anyway, soon, you might hear only the "officially sanctioned" line of PR spiel, not my own independent and unfiltered remarks anymore. Maybe that will make some people happier, fighting against an anonymous PR foe, representing an evil "Island Shredder" monster developer, instead of getting questions answered personally and honestly by jovial "GM Paul and his Merry Men"? But this is not a battle of "good" vs. "evil", but between people with different interests and world views, most of them on both sides meaning well, trying to do their best to their abilities.


Setting aside unnecessary sarcasm, I agree that dialogue is important and polarizing a situation into good vs. evil is usually the beginning of a destructive downward spiral. The Ninja Turtles vs Island shredder thing was meant mostly as a joke. But in all honesty, look at what these guys are doing, claiming and planning! They brag about how much of Lamma they own. They have funded books that give a stilted view of the Lamma situation that would lend support to their own development agenda. They do not operate in a publicly open manner. They are planning to destroy large areas of Lamma Island's natural environment and replace it with exclusive communities that in all probability would not be publicly accessible -( look at Lammarina).
Yes - I'm opposed.!! I don't care how affable or merry they appear to be.

Lamma-Gung wrote:
Before that happens maybe we can get them to organise a guided tour and Q&A session for everybody interested? Let me suggest that to them, as soon as the interior of the Lammarina houses will be completed, end of this month, maybe, perhaps?


This would be great - count me in!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:23 am 
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Tavis wrote:
Lamma-Gung wrote:
Before that happens maybe we can get them to organise a guided tour and Q&A session for everybody interested?

This would be great - count me in!!

Just confirmed yesterday, by Bobby Li himself. See Lammarina topic.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:07 am 
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Lamma-gung,
please let us know when the guided tour will take place. I am definitely interested.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:42 am 
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Yes, of course! It'll be front-page news!

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Guided tour and "Open House" in the Lammarina is still on, but the date is still very flexible. Maybe next month...

Recent photos of beautiful Tung O Wan, location of the planned The Baroque development, taken during a GreenLammaGroup hiking trip on May 1, are here:

http://www.lamma.com.hk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8193

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:33 pm 
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<img src="http://www.compunicate.com/Lamma-zine/PG-2/Lammarina-ERM100609/!DSC_6610-banner-wp.jpg" border=1>

This is a captioned photo gallery of a site visit by private boat to the future location of the planned The Baroque, a "six-star luxury resort and first-class Marina Club development project" in Tung O Wan, South Lamma.

The Lamma-zine was invited by the developers, together with their newly appointed Environmental/Social Impact Assessment consultants.

I hear different stories from different people about The Baroque. Most seem to believe the plans have been stopped recently. Others seem to believe that it's been approved secretly already. Both are incorrect, as far as I know.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:57 am 
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do excuse my ignorance but what is cultural studies?????

as one ralatively new to hk and lamma though i have resided on lamma only.it seems to me a place ,rather an irish colony ,i base this on many a hospital having been staffed by irish nuns ,the irish embassadors,the
origins being the pbi opium dealers etc
,it seems to me that universal sufferage and a decent minimum wage is what hk need rather than big developments like this,just lets face it folks if the indigenous hakka people had the land first and they are willing to allow this ,should we as mere visitors here have such a say ,however i am aware of the plethora who do consider this ex british colony home
though i have lived in many countries ,i can honestly say that as my first experience of a colony now ex and i find it all rather shocking,the inequity ,at the very least,the nepotism ,etc etc
having found out sir arthur was in india ,i think i shall galivant there in future ,its so very interesting a place
genuine question tavis ,what is cultural studies????


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:47 am 
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alice dancer wrote:
just lets face it folks if the indigenous hakka people had the land first and they are willing to allow this ,should we as mere visitors here have such a say ,however i am aware of the plethora who do consider this ex british colony home


Because we're (and by "we, I include all the 7 million people who live in Hong Kong}, are not "mere visitors". We live here. We all have rights. And in a civilised society, you don't let the land owners do whatever they like with "their" land, there are zoning laws. Otherwise you end up with wall-to-wall slums and factories next to kindergartens.

If you imply that it's only "interfering gweilo backpacker hippies" that oppose this, you're wrong. It's the actual (Chinese) Hong Kong government that has (so far) ruled against it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Alan wrote:
It's the actual (Chinese) Hong Kong government that has (so far) ruled against it.


.. yes, but only some kind of toothless Inter-Departmental Committee unfortunately - a token delay. This development will go ahead like the sun rises, unless something surprising happens.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Marc Antony wrote:
Alan wrote:
It's the actual (Chinese) Hong Kong government that has (so far) ruled against it.


.. yes, but only some kind of toothless Inter-Departmental Committee unfortunately - a token delay. This development will go ahead like the sun rises, unless something surprising happens.


This guy is big by Lamma standards, but he's a pipsqueak compared to the big developers. I don't think he has that much pull with the top levels of government, which he'd need to get them to change a policy so radically.

At least we can slow it down and with any luck he'll go bankrupt before he can do any damage.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:07 pm 
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A little update on The Baroque, from the recent meeting of the Conservancy Association with the developers King Wong and ERM Consultants:
<OL COMPACT><LI>"The developer is preparing a planning application to rezone various agricultural land and conservation area into CDA (Comprehensive Development Area).
<LI>The planning application would be submitted to Town Planning Board in early 2011.
<LI>Current plan is revised after sending to DOO (Development Opportunity Office). The plot ratio is now changed from 1.0 (I don’t remember the exact no) to 0.6. The building height, in general, would be 4 storeys.
<LI>The plan comprises many items, like Spa hotel, marina, yacht club, boutique hotel, low carbon transport, low-density residential development, natural trail,…</OL>The Conservancy Association (CA) had expressed our objection of the plan as the scale of development remains large and it would definitely spoil South Lamma in total. For your reference, the proposed plot ratio is high as most of the project in rural area ranges from 0.2-0.4.

I’ve mentioned to the consultant about its poor public engagement work with low level of transparency because most of the locals nearly knew nothing about the plan. They argued that since the details of the plan have not been confirmed yet, disclosing the plan to the public would cause misunderstandings. Of course, CA did not accept such excuse. That’s why we urge for a proper engagement exercise, ideally via some public forums.

The consultant at the meeting promised me that they’ll arrange sessions for various concerned groups in Lamma."

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:51 pm 
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SCMP wrote:
Bid for luxury project on Lamma revived
Residents, green groups fear ecological impact of amended housing and marina proposal
Joyce Ng Mar 14, 2011
<img src="http://www.imgupload.org/images/102_scm_news_1.1.nws_city14_map_2colx34l.jpg" align=left>
The controversial "Baroque on Lamma" development has been resurrected - to the anger of many island residents and green groups.
The luxury residential and marine project - situated near a conservation area - was rejected by development and planning officials last year.

But an amended plan is being finalised for submission to the Town Planning Board.

The project is a joint venture between Agile Property Holdings (SEHK: 3383), a Hong Kong-listed company focusing on mainland real estate, and local company King Wong Development.

"Our new proposal is a big improvement," said August Tiu Chin-wai, who is in charge of Baroque on Lamma. King Wong's chief Bobby Li is dubbed "the landlord of Lamma" - his firm owns more than three million square feet of land on the island.

Last year, the developer's plan was rejected by the Development Opportunities Office, which facilitates private proposals deemed worthwhile. The office said the residential density was too high and expressed concern about the ecological impact on the island's south, where endangered turtle and frog species are found.

Tiu said the height of residential buildings in the new proposal was reduced to no more than four storeys, instead of six or seven. The project would yield 700 to 900 flats.

If approved, the houses will be built on the hills surrounding Tung O Wan, where most land is currently zoned as conservation areas to protect the habitat of Romer's tree frog, an endangered species of global conservation importance.

The development site boundary would be 200 to 300 metres away from Sham Wan, a nesting ground for the endangered green turtle in the south of Lamma which is listed by the government as a "site of special scientific interest" with restricted entry. Alan Leung Sze-lun, senior conservation officer for WWF Hong Kong, said his group was very worried about the project's impact on the endangered species.

"The green turtle is a creature that is very sensitive to light. Also, I doubt whether it is wise to rezone a conservation area for development because the zoning is supposed to protect natural landscape," Leung said.

Peter Lee Siu-man, campaign manager of the Conservancy Association, said it was impossible for his group to support the project. "Southern Lamma is too sensitive a site for any sort of development. The government once suggested the area be a country park but officials don't tell us what has been going on," he said.

Asked why he thought housing would be suitable for the conservation zone, Tiu said the developer was thinking of rezoning the hilly land into a development zone and exchanging land with the government.

"We will surrender land of high ecological value in exchange for the less sensitive parts. Not all the land on the hills is vulnerable; some sites are just overgrown with weeds," Tiu said, adding that a consultant was conducting an environmental impact assessment for the project.

The proposed marina, spanning across Tung O Wan in southeast Lamma in the original proposal, is now confined to the northern part of the bay, with 500 berths for yachts. The nearby waters would become a venue for international sailing races.

A six-star spa hotel at Shek Pai Wan remains in the blueprint and new roads are proposed to provide access. The developer will also suggest preserving abandoned houses in the 300-year-old Mo Tat Old Village as a cultural heritage spot, and setting up organic farms in the area.

Damon Wong Chun-pong, a resident of Mo Tat New Village who received a briefing from the developer recently, said he was worried that the project would ruin the natural scenic character of southern Lamma.

"Although the developer talked of conservation measures, the houses, the yacht club, the hotel will bring in lots of people. The whole environment will be completely changed," Wong, an editor of Hong Kong In-media, a website run by independent reporters, said. Wong said most of the 30 indigenous villagers in southern Lamma had sold land to the developer.

A spokeswoman for the Agriculture, Fisheries and Conservation Department said a study completed in 2001 indicated that coastal waters off southern Lamma had the potential to be designated as a marine park to conserve some ecologically sensitive marine fauna, such as the green turtle and finless porpoise.

But the site was "given a lower priority" in the designation timetable because Sham Wan is already protected by law as a restricted area, and the department's monitoring data showed finless porpoises made less use of the waters off the island's southern coast, the spokeswoman said.


Image

==========================
"Six star hotel"???
500 yacht berths?
Give me a break.
That's all just a smokescreen and will probably never get built. The rest is just another luxury housing development, like Cyberport and Disco Bay. Except it will end up more like Sea Ranch.

This lunatic is going to lose all his money; but in the process he'll destroy the whole bay and leave it a wasteland.


Last edited by Alan on Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:41 pm 
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If its going to be as successful as Lamma Garden which has now stood empty for years despite the developer pretending to "finish" it for years.

Not one tenant.

The Waters close to the baroque are actually already a venue for international yacht racing and as a member of the hong kong sailing community I can promise we do it very well without the interference of any private companies.

The three yacht clubs and the sailing federations are excellent.

My personal opinion no private companies involvement in sailing is welcomed or invited, except as sponsors.

So on your bike Mr. Bobby Li


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Lamma-Gung wrote:
The consultant at the meeting promised me that they’ll arrange sessions for various concerned groups in Lamma."


Well, obviously they didn't bother with that.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:49 pm 
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oh yes they gave Living lamma a presentation: it consisted of pictures of Portofino, St. Tropez, Cannes, downloaded from the Internet....and some vague mention of sustainability and zero carbon emissions. The architect said they would generate electricity using the power of waves. No such a thing has ever been built in Asia, to my best knowledge...but it probably sounds good to people who know nothing of sustainability....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:30 pm 
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poilkoop wrote:
If its going to be as successful as Lamma Garden which has now stood empty for years despite the developer pretending to "finish" it for years.

Not one tenant.



I just googled what they're asking for as rent. $50,000 a month? Christ. You could live anywhere for that and not have to put up with dog sh!t!

http://www.gohome.com.hk/residential/pr ... 416721/en/


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:27 pm 
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bobby li and king wong have been struggling to build repair and rent the tannery beach development for a decade or so now

given the state of the place and the ridiculous rents he is asking it seems unlikely that anything will change there soon

if this is typical of his level of competence where does the money come from to bankroll his projects?

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